Is a pastor an elder? I have my answer, what is yours?
13 comments:
Anonymous
said...
your question is too ambiguous. what do you mean by "pastor"? is a pastor paid, have a title, or have a specific "job" description...or are they someone with the gift/heart of a pastor and are able and called by a community to shepherd/influence/serve in the "function" of a pastor within a gifted and missional community of believers?
Biblically: yes. the five fold pattern in Eph 4 is one of functions/roles, not positions. therefore, if someone is functioning within their gifting in a local church in one of these roles then they are a leader/elder/bishop...regardless of whether they are paid or not.
Constitutionally: depends on your denomination. because of our connection to the government as non-profit organizations we must become a "society" with a minimum requirement of so many "board" members taking care of business within the church. this is a voted in position (usually sr. pastors are a given), by either an elders board or the congregation. the position of elder within a society has more to do (in my opinion) with its connection to the government than it does to whether or not those people actually have the biblical gifts to function in that role.
so, are all pastors elders...depends if you're asking from a biblical standpoint or a constitutional one. that's my 2cents.
Interesting, I would have said that the functions/ roles in Ephesians 4 were positions...however I suppose that would raise issues for our current church culture...such as, where are our apostles? where are our prophets? I think it would bother me if the constitution did not line up with the biblical concept of the elder/pastor. Our current church constitution is apparently defunct and is going to be rewritten...very interestng
i feel that our current church culture has systematized and institutionalized too much of what leadership in the church should be...we've put competence before character and have forgotten that Christ calls losers to participate in his kingdom. as far as pastors go, our current culture wants professionals; people who can "lead the church." the problem is that we don't what it means to "lead the church" anymore. i believe teams were a big part of the early church, even though it is only implicitly described. yes, some were given the gifts of pastor and teacher and prophet and evangelist and apostle...but those were gifts and they were gifts...not positions. they were functioning in the role of using their gifts, they were elders, all together, not receiving monetary gifts. monetary gifts were for those establishing and planting churches...it was not meant to be a long term financial comittment. again...just my 2cents.
you referred to our current church culture. I realize that what we have now is current...however within what we have now there seem to be at least two subcultures...one, the emerging and the other, the fading (as I would Identify it) it seems to me that the emerging is becoming less interested in professionals, what do you think? also if this is true we may well see a shift to more of a team mentality in the future...((I think in some churches this shift has already begun...the abandonment of the term senior pastor for Lead Pastor))
I guess I consider pastors and elders to be one in the same. I think that is the way it is laid out in scripture. in the course I am currently taking, Pastoral Epistles, the lecturer makes a very good argument to that end citing this scripture and that scripture, comparing this gk word with that one. From my perspective, as I survey the Pastorals, and Acts, Elders just seem to resemble Pastors. The task for those who are gifted in Ephesians 4 seems to resemble Paul's address to the Eph. Elders in Acts 20. anyhow...that is how I see it. But I appreciate your point about the difference between constitutional and biblical perspectives. in all honesty it bothers me that the two don't always line up.
We, that is to say, the Bugslags live in Whitehorse. We are currently serving at the Whitehorse Baptist Church. Rick is the Youth Pastor and Sarah is the best.
13 comments:
your question is too ambiguous. what do you mean by "pastor"? is a pastor paid, have a title, or have a specific "job" description...or are they someone with the gift/heart of a pastor and are able and called by a community to shepherd/influence/serve in the "function" of a pastor within a gifted and missional community of believers?
Pastor
Paid employee of the church
Sr.
Youth
Associate
take your pick
Biblically: yes. the five fold pattern in Eph 4 is one of functions/roles, not positions. therefore, if someone is functioning within their gifting in a local church in one of these roles then they are a leader/elder/bishop...regardless of whether they are paid or not.
Constitutionally: depends on your denomination. because of our connection to the government as non-profit organizations we must become a "society" with a minimum requirement of so many "board" members taking care of business within the church. this is a voted in position (usually sr. pastors are a given), by either an elders board or the congregation. the position of elder within a society has more to do (in my opinion) with its connection to the government than it does to whether or not those people actually have the biblical gifts to function in that role.
so, are all pastors elders...depends if you're asking from a biblical standpoint or a constitutional one. that's my 2cents.
Interesting,
I would have said that the functions/ roles in Ephesians 4 were positions...however I suppose that would raise issues for our current church culture...such as, where are our apostles? where are our prophets? I think it would bother me if the constitution did not line up with the biblical concept of the elder/pastor. Our current church constitution is apparently defunct and is going to be rewritten...very interestng
i feel that our current church culture has systematized and institutionalized too much of what leadership in the church should be...we've put competence before character and have forgotten that Christ calls losers to participate in his kingdom.
as far as pastors go, our current culture wants professionals; people who can "lead the church." the problem is that we don't what it means to "lead the church" anymore.
i believe teams were a big part of the early church, even though it is only implicitly described. yes, some were given the gifts of pastor and teacher and prophet and evangelist and apostle...but those were gifts and they were gifts...not positions. they were functioning in the role of using their gifts, they were elders, all together, not receiving monetary gifts. monetary gifts were for those establishing and planting churches...it was not meant to be a long term financial comittment.
again...just my 2cents.
you referred to our current church culture. I realize that what we have now is current...however within what we have now there seem to be at least two subcultures...one, the emerging and the other, the fading (as I would Identify it) it seems to me that the emerging is becoming less interested in professionals, what do you think? also if this is true we may well see a shift to more of a team mentality in the future...((I think in some churches this shift has already begun...the abandonment of the term senior pastor for Lead Pastor))
have you read my blog lately?
Shocked...in shock
i'm still waiting for your answer...
I am sorry, I don't know what question you asked me...I am an awful friend...
sorry man...the original one of this blog about a pastor and elder...you mentioned you had your answer already...what is it?
I guess I consider pastors and elders to be one in the same. I think that is the way it is laid out in scripture. in the course I am currently taking, Pastoral Epistles, the lecturer makes a very good argument to that end citing this scripture and that scripture, comparing this gk word with that one. From my perspective, as I survey the Pastorals, and Acts, Elders just seem to resemble Pastors. The task for those who are gifted in Ephesians 4 seems to resemble Paul's address to the Eph. Elders in Acts 20.
anyhow...that is how I see it. But I appreciate your point about the difference between constitutional and biblical perspectives. in all honesty it bothers me that the two don't always line up.
yes, unless the pastor is under 25 years of age. Then he is a younger elder pastor!
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